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Vertical resolution lacking
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dmichel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno. I could add an option to preserve the aspect ratio in full stretch mode but it will never be perfect, the best solution is to use custom resolutions, no pixel stretching and and you can adjust the aspect ratio yourself (on a CRT monitor that is).
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Bimuno
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To early.
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KingHanco
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SideArms - Hyper Dyne

Push start button to get this menu to comeup. It don't suppose to be shown when it is hidden before you bring it up.



Btw: Check on the other program that I have (Start with Oo. I will not give the name out. So don't give the name out ether.) that been made this year and the game shown the same way as cutoff of the screen as this one does. Here is why it been cutoff. Some tv's have a frame around the screen which hidden what is left hidden under it. Other tv's have extra space on the screen and don't have a frame around the screen.

Why do I get a widescreen when I have it disabled.
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no taboo about Ootake.

As for the 240 overscan res, there's a similar case with the Famicom, which standard vertical res is 224. Some emulators like VirtuaNES have an option to show the 240 lines if the user really wants to. Such a feature could be implemented in ME.

KingHanco wrote:
Why do I get a widescreen when I have it disabled.


I don't understand the question :)
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ccovell
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaminari wrote:
As for the 240 overscan res, there's a similar case with the Famicom, which standard vertical res is 224.

There is no "standard" vertical res of 224 lines on the Famicom, at least not as the hardware sees it. I did tests with my Famicom/NES a long time ago (a very rudimentary test: turn the TV on and off quickly, and see what the NES displays near the top and bottom borders) and discovered that the NTSC NES generates and displays almost all 240 lines.

Again, at issue is not how various game systems generate their displays, because they are dumbly generating full 240 lines, or whatever their programmers set the vertical res to, if the systems have that capability. The issue is that TV systems cut off the borders of that display. And they all do it differently. So, what are emu authors intending to emulate, game systems, or TVs?
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KingHanco
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kaminari wrote:
KingHanco wrote:
Why do I get a widescreen when I have it disabled.


I don't understand the question Smile


Ootake have the screen correct sizes. This need to be correct on the MagicEngine which is the settings is wrong screen size. Could this be a bug on the screen settings on some of the games play when the widescreen is disabled and it actually hidden as enabled? Something is wrong there. MagicEngine 1.0.0 PR10. Ootake snapshot of the SideArms - Hyper Dyne vs the snaphot from MagicEngine.



I notice that the default will not reset the setting back to default on MagicEngine. The 2nd issue that I found which is odd. I think this is broken. Was this already report?

Another issue that I already report is that some of the games have some very weard shockwave graphics rolling across the screen such as 1941 game. Nobody haven't told me how to stop that from doing that when the numbers move to the left and then stop to the middle. I notice that Ootake can't play 1941 yet. Maybe Ootake does the same thing and the guy removed the support because of this issue until the problem is fixs. Mame use to have this problem in the past. But Mame nolonger have that issue anymore and the video driver is fixs.
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ccovell wrote:
The issue is that TV systems cut off the borders of that display. And they all do it differently.


I believe that's what I've been saying all along :)

ccovell wrote:
So, what are emu authors intending to emulate, game systems, or TVs?


Both, my good man.

In my silly way of thinking, the emulator is, first and foremost, a virtual gaming console. I "plug" it on my monitor and I expect to experience the games the way they were designed back then. In my own experience, that means with a vertical resolution of 224 lines filling up the whole screen. So yes, in this case, the emu has to take into account the behaviour of a common TV.

But this certainly doesn't mean we have to cut back on the extra features. Since the emu can potentially reproduce the full resolution of the system and go past the limitations of a TV display, let's make it an option for the user. One should be able to look "behind the curtain" and observe how the system is dealing with the overscan area -- if only because the system can do it.

PS: an interesting thought about Side Arms (inspired by King Hanco's comment).

In the arcade version, the weapon menu is always visible. But in the PCE port, you actually access the weapon menu by pausing the game, which makes the menu scroll up from the screen bottom. Why make it scroll upwards if it's supposedly already visible?

Well, obviously, the menu scrolls up because you're just not supposed to see it ingame! This is perfectly consistent with the fact that on each and every TV I've tested lately (half a dozen in the last two months), the menu can not be seen at all without pausing the game. I reasonably assume it's meant to be hidden down the screen, in the 240 "garbage" area. IMO this confirms that 224 is the "standard" vertical res of PCE games -- "standard" as in "expected on most TVs".
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ King Hanco

Looks like you're talking about aspect correction.

In window mode, Ootake enforces a 4/3 ratio (256x224 and 336x224 are stretched to 640x480). For now, Magic Engine 1.0 doesn't make any aspect correction in window mode. 256x224 and 336x224 are simply doubled to 512x448 and 672x448.

To get a 4/3 ratio, you have to play in fullscreen mode and enable the Full option (in the Video menu).
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Tomaitheous
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that ME is doing a 4:3 aspect ratio according to 224 vertical pixel height when in fact it should be calculated on 240 lines - whether all lines are shown or not. Also the pixel aspect ratio for each of the 3 resolution sizes are different - 5.37mhz, 7.16mhz, 10.5mhz.
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dmichel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm planning on making all this customizable in ME (aspect ratio, screen size and positioning), there will be global settings and per-game settings too, this should make everyone happy. Very Happy
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KingHanco
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmichel wrote:
I'm planning on making all this customizable in ME (aspect ratio, screen size and positioning), there will be global settings and per-game settings too, this should make everyone happy. Very Happy


Sound good to me. Very Happy
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ccovell
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, David, it sounds good. Kaminari, I guess we agree on some points, and disagree on others -- like terminology, and whether in an emu the system is considered slave to the TV or vice-versa (I prefer the latter. If the former, shouldn't "scanlines mode" also be set on as default?). That David is planning on putting adjustable resolution settings in his emu is great; but what I suppose I am arguing about is the idea of "standard", "official", "practical" resolutions of a system. On the NES, it is fixed, but hidden from view because of variances in TVs -- so I can understand why people argue about it. On the PC-Engine, it is user-definable (by the programmers), therefore any argument about what the "real" resolution should be is absurd to me.

What I am most worried about, you see, is when various websites, discussion groups, etc, take the "standard" resolution of a system, and start writing that as the maximum resolution on tech specs. I hate seeing that happen, and it does.
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ccovell
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to dredge up a slightly old topic, but this problem in Magic Engine has come back to bite me in the butt while I was having fun making maps of all the worlds and dungeons in Neutopia I and II. See this post for details.

I believe even more strongly now that PCE emulators should set their resolutions precisely to what the games themselves set them to, otherwise it's not accurate emulation. I don't have the experience of an emulator author, but I'd say that over 90% of PCE games set their resolutions to 232 or 240 lines, and don't show garbage in those regions. Many (like Neutopia I and II) even show useful (if not necessary) graphics in those regions; so masking these areas out just for the sake of beautifying a minority of games seems absurd.

The programmers of PCE games were professionals, and so they knew what they were doing when setting up the VDC registers. They knew the consequences of setting the vertical resolution at 224, 232, or 240 lines. I think their programming choices should be faithfully honoured and represented on-screen -- by default.
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jammaniaclord
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this would be a nice option to include, and have it autodetect. This emulator kicks ass, and you guys with all your technical wizardry amaze me!




Keep the NEC scene ALIVE!!!!!!!!



Very Happy Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmichel wrote:
I'm planning on making all this customizable in ME (aspect ratio, screen size and positioning), there will be global settings and per-game settings too, this should make everyone happy. Very Happy


Sounds good to me too. I would like to be able to output MagicEngine at low-res modes, via my ArcadeVGA card (http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html). It has plenty of 240 line modes which could be dislpayed perfectly on an arcade monitor or scart TV. Adjustment of the screen itself could be used to to purposely cut top/bottom parts off if required.
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