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Tengai Makyou Ziria Translation
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EsperKnight
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:21 am    Post subject: Tengai Makyou Ziria Translation Reply with quote

I've lurked here quite a bit but haven't registered or posted anything before but figured I'd go ahead now...

I wanted to announce that myself and Tom (who's translated numerous projects, Persona 2: Innocent Sin being the most well known probably) are translating Tengai Makyou Ziria.

So far the intro's been dumped and translated as well as the first three blocks. I've inserted the first and second block so far. I'll be working on block 3 and the intro next, as well as dumping more (for now I'm locating them manually as I play). The game also features a new font along with it being setup as a VWF.

Screenshots are located here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/39402362@N08/

If anyone's interested I may post some of the technical stuff related to this, such as how I did the VWF and how the blocks are stored (there compressed with LZSS, except for the intro... which I think was a test on there part, as the first tag you see is Test before the intro text starts Smile )

I'll update this thread on our progress as well as we go along too. Enjoy the pics! (All 4 of them Wink
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dmichel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey that's a great news! Ziria is a good game, playing it in English will be awesome. I wish you guys good luck, go go!

What is VWF? I know the WWF but I don't think it's related. Razz
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EsperKnight
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahahaha, well the VWF is similar to the WWF in that letters fight in cage matches Wink

VWF stands for variable width font. Usually for Japanese, all the letters are fixed width. But when replacing the Japanese with English, depending on the game, the letters will be fixed width so you'd see spaces between all the letters. VWF just means that the letters aren't fixed width which makes it look nicer (or so Tom says, he forced me to code it up Wink I have to agree with him.... if your curious I can load up the before pictures, it's not pretty).

Glad to hear your interested too!

So far I went ahead and dumped blocks 4, 5, 6 and 7... finished up the 3rd one and now working on the intro. I want to smack whoever did the intro though, as they decided to be different with it (I'm curious to know if it's a test though as they have in english, the word Test right before the first line) and of course ours doesn't fit... but no worry on that, I'm looking into moving the intro block and loading in extra blocks after it (which should be doable I'm thinking...)
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David Shadoff
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi EsperKnight,

I'm also interested in translating this game, and I got to the point of creating a script dump program, but I find and catalog all of the blocks yet - I only found about 35-40 of them. I have some information for the meanings of some special characters, but not all of them.

I'd be happy to share with you any information I have about the game, and any tools or techniques for PC Engine translations.

By the way, this game had 2 releases - one on CDROM, and one on Super CDROM (which in theory was supposed to cut down on CD accesses). The Super CDROM release was a "hibaihin" or "unreleased" game which was presumably a giveaway of some sort, but I'm not sure of the details.

I would recommend using the CDROM version - there are probably more real copies of it floating around in circulation, and if you're pressed for memory, you can change it into a Super CDROM and use the extra memory segments without any fear of your code being overwritten.

In case you don't know how to tell them apart, here's how...
In your data track (track 2), at offset 0x4C51:
CDROM version = "E9 4E"
Super CDROM = "88 4F"

Also, probably 50% or more of that data track is ADPCM data; I have tools to convert that to WAV Files too (so these phrases can also be translated), but there's some work to find the start/end references and when they get called.

Send me a PM with your email address, and I'll send you my notes to help you along.

-Dave
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superb project you started there. Ziria is really an underestimated gem.

A couple of early observations...

I appreciate the craftsmanship that went into the custom font, but I'm afraid it's not very readable and is going to strain the eyes after 40 hours of playthrough.

I'm not fluent in Japanese, but "daimonkyō" translated as "Daimon faith" strikes me as odd. A better alternative in my opinion would be "Daimon cult". But maybe that will be a job for the correctors :)

Good luck in your endeavours!
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EsperKnight
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kaminari! I'll bring up the point about Daimon faith/cult with my translator as that's up to him Smile (Although he may read this before I get to him...)

And yeah, the font needs to be cleaned up, or is it that bad? Smile I know some of the letters are way to close together (the l's come to mind or is it the i's? and the periods with spaces need to be tweaked too I noticed). Thanks!
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David Shadoff
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I have to agree with Kaminari; it's a cute font, but it's just too stylized to be used as more than a gimmick. 40+ hours of playtime, I'd probably be clawing at my eyes.

Looking back at the Ys 1+2 transplanted fonts from 1990, they were quite readable, although they didn't necessarily match the artistic style of the game.

If I were going to put a VWF font in, I'd probably take the lead from one of the SNES projects like Wozz or Emerald Dragon...
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Tom
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your suggestion, but it will stay as the Daimon "faith." The reason: That's what the Japanese script says. It's a religion which is held in high regards by most of the villagers throughout the story. They worship Masakado and believe that he will grant them immortality. There are Daimon temples in practically every major city in the game. People often say the "Christian faith," or the "Jewish faith," or things like that. Even if you believe religions seem like cults, the Japanese script does not use the word "cult" here to refer to Daimon, and neither will the English version.

(Slight spoiler warning...)

I believe it sounds odd to you because usually religious proper names get "adjective" versions. Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, etc. (But the same "oddity" of not having an adjective applies to "Daimon cult." It sounds just as "odd" as Daimon faith, because it's not an adjective.) I was, at one point, considering calling it the "Daimonic faith" because of this, but I feel that this name is giving too much away. It's only later in the game that you are told "Daimon" is more like the English "daemon/demon." (It's supposed to be a somewhat obscure reference.) Adding an adjective suffix to Daimon makes it WAY too obvious from the start.

I am, however, open to your suggestions about whether I should use daemon or demon to refer to the true roots of this religion. I am leaning to "daemon" because it looks more like Daimon and the weird spelling might seem older and well-suited for such an "ancient" game... What are your thoughts? (By the way, the katakana used during that explanation is "デーモン.")

And hey, I really like the "Asian" style font. It closely resembles the font that they were planning to use for the English 360 release before it was cancelled. If it could be smoothed out a little, that would be good. In any case, I think it'll grow on you! Twisted Evil I don't want this game to have a plain, generic font. This game is a little kooky and odd, so it deserves to have a somewhat funky font. Wink That is not to say that the font may not be improved, but rather that it will remain stylistically appropriate to the game. I was originally going to have it use the same font as my Oriental Blue: Ao no Tengai translation, to set a standard for the Tengai series until I saw the cancelled Gaijinworks pictures... Now I insist on the Asian font. Cool

(By the way, if you're wondering about Oriental Blue: Ao no Tengai, the translation's already done and thoroughly revised. The only thing stopping the release are menu-related craziness that the hacker needs to fix. It's totally playable, though. Good times are just ahead for Tengai Makyou fans.)
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stevek666
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I am delighted to hear about this project. Good luck.

Tom wrote:
If it could be smoothed out a little, that would be good. In any case, I think it'll grow on you! Twisted Evil I don't want this game to have a plain, generic font. This game is a little kooky and odd, so it deserves to have a somewhat funky font. Wink That is not to say that the font may not be improved, but rather that it will remain stylistically appropriate to the game. I was originally going to have it use the same font as my Oriental Blue: Ao no Tengai translation, to set a standard for the Tengai series until I saw the cancelled Gaijinworks pictures... Now I insist on the Asian font. Cool


I respect your decision regarding the font, and, honestly, I don't want to debate the "readability" of it. Clearly, I'll be delighted simply to play this game in English.

That said, I would prefer a less extravagant font. I am not claiming to be an authority on usability, but this font is pretty darn extreme. It seems better suited to occasionally add a punch of style (i.e. on a title screen, as chapter headings, etc.).

Again, I honestly am not trying to debate this now*--I just wanted to add my two cents.

The most important thing is that this project is underway!



*There will be plenty of time for us to sway your opinions in the future Smile
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
It's a religion which is held in high regards by most of the villagers throughout the story. Even if you believe religions seem like cults, the Japanese script does not use the word "cult" here to refer to Daimon, and neither will the English version.


You seem to consider "cult" in its modern (usually pejorative) meaning. According to the OED, a cult is "a system of religious worship especially as expressed in ritual".

"Faith" is a different word, it means "personal belief" -- and it doesn't imply an organized system of worshipping rules, like "cult" does. In this case, "cult" is simply the equivalent of "church" or "religion", which is exactly what the Japanese script says with "kyō".

But it's your call, of course.

Quote:
I am, however, open to your suggestions about whether I should use daemon or demon to refer to the true roots of this religion. I am leaning to "daemon" because it looks more like Daimon and the weird spelling might seem older and well-suited for such an "ancient" game... What are your thoughts? (By the way, the katakana used during that explanation is "デーモン.")


"Daemon" sounds indeed appropriate, if only because, as you say, it's an archaic word and as such it suits the wordplay "daimon / demon" quite well. In Fūun Kabuki Den, the ambiguity is non-existent: as soon as you get to London, the Daimonkyō is always referred to as the "Demonkyō".

Cool beans about Ao no Tengai. I was starting to believe I was the only one enjoying this RPG.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You seem to consider "cult" in its modern (usually pejorative) meaning. According to the OED, a cult is "a system of religious worship especially as expressed in ritual".


That might be the text-book definition of "cult", but my exposure and experience with the word is that of Tom's explanation. AFAIK, no one I know ever refers (in a respectful tone) to the Catholic Church as a cult.

Quote:
"Faith" is a different word, it means "personal belief" -- and it doesn't imply an organized system of worshipping rules, like "cult" does. In this case, "cult" is simply the equivalent of "church" or "religion", which is exactly what the Japanese script says with "kyō".


The most popular usage/meaning of faith (in context) is undeniably religious. Associative to a religion, but not necessarily specific. If one has "faith", one is believed to hold religious values/morals/convictions close to heart. Unless it's used in specific (popular) phrases, or in explicit context, faith is more than just "personal belief". Very-very often it's paired with Christan (Christan faith), and a lesser extent Muslim (faith), Catholic (faith), Jewish (faith), etc. Faith is softer more gentle word than religion (which tends to carry a more negative meaning these days). Faith is definitely a synonym of religion in its most popular context/usage. Well, at least here in the US.
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Kaminari
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the problem with a "textbook" definition? Are we talking about the literary definition of "cult" or its post-modern 21st century popular usage? This is not exactly a game about street language; I think it requires a minimum of cultural open-mindedness.

Anyway, if "faith" means "religion" in the States, I rest my case. I'm not interested in the ideology behind this choice of words. As a translator, I am more interested in the semantic and cultural approach. Translating and localizing a text to be undestandable by a foreign audience is one thing; to adapt it to suit the taste of a foreign audience is a different exercise (cf. the century-long debate over the American-English "translation" of Conan Doyle's works).

I wish I didn't start this dead-end conversation because I was almost certain it would be a lost cause from the start. Just forget about this and good luck with your translation, this is a praiseworthy project.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitions aside, the main problem is that the Japanese language has a word for cult, and that word is not used in the game's script, at least not in the parts that I've translated yet. It wasn't used in Japanese, and it will not be used in English either.

"This is not exactly a game about street language; I think it requires a minimum of cultural open-mindedness. "

It's just a translation... And Tengai Makyou, despite its time period, has a really "modern" script when the characters actually speak. I mean, it's not like they are speaking archaic Japanese. It seems like modern or "street Japanese" to me a lot of the time. Five people will give five different translations, but if the Japanese script had said cult, I would have kept it as cult. Since it didn't use the word for cult, I will not.

I haven't really adapted the text yet. I am just translating it in the best way that I see fit. I certainly don't want to give it a bland translation, because I know that this will be many people's first experience with the Tengai Makyou series. They want a script that really shines. With that said, none of the text is finalized, and even the small amount that I've done still needs a lot of polishing before it would be anything that I'd want to present to people.

The font is not perfect, but I really insist on the Asian style. If somebody has a suitable Asian style font to show, or can make and implement a smoother one, please feel free to show it. That's a much more appealing argument... Instead of just saying, "I don't like it, make it better." Smile

Actually, I really like the English text at the beginning of Tengai Makyou II, that says "Another time, another place..." It is in a similar Asian style, but it's also very clear. Unfortunately, it's not the full font. If somebody can create a font like that, it would be nice.

And you like Oriental Blue too? Great! Oriental Blue is an incredible game, very under-rated, for sure. When I got it, I didn't like it at first, but it really grew on me. I have beaten it three times over, and I'm working on a fourth playthrough. I will probably play it a fifth time before it's released in English.

I'm really excited to bring more Tengai Makyou goodness out in English. I hope that when the PCE games are done that people can find a way to port them over to the PSP and DS versions. I was interested in the PS2 and Gamecube versions of TM2 as well until I found out that they were pretty heavily censored. I know the PSP and DS versions swapped out the manji symbol in the intro and replaced it with the mark of the Fire Clan, but does anyone know if they censored Kinu's scene in the handheld remakes?

And I also still need to beat TM3... Laughing
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David Shadoff
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

I'm really excited to bring more Tengai Makyou goodness out in English.

That's fantastic. Tomaitheous and I are helping out EsperKnt a bit with tools and locating and extracting text (and any other materials which could help, such as walkthrough books from back in the day).

I have also found a bunch of ADPCM speech in Ziria which you will probably want to hear... I'm not sure if all of it has corresponding text though (and it may not be in sequence). I'll get the details to EsperKnt for this.

Tom wrote:

I hope that when the PCE games are done that people can find a way to port them over to the PSP and DS versions. I was interested in the PS2 and Gamecube versions of TM2 as well until I found out that they were pretty heavily censored. I know the PSP and DS versions swapped out the manji symbol in the intro and replaced it with the mark of the Fire Clan, but does anyone know if they censored Kinu's scene in the handheld remakes?

The PSP version of TM2 was emulated... Not sure how/why they would make such a change. Are you sure about this ?
It's on a disc with Ziria and Fuun Kabuki Den.
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-9f-49-en-70-2qi2.html

As I understand it they use the same binary images as the PCE discs, so it should be possible to transfer any PCE work to create a patch for that machine.

If you are correct about a modification to Manji Maru on PSP, they might have done this in a similar way to how Dracula X was modified (leaving the original track intact, but apparently modfying how the emulator deals with it). In any case, I'm sure that it can be handled.

I'm not familiar with the DS version's internals though (for Manji Maru), so I don't know how easy/hard that would be.

Tom wrote:

And I also still need to beat TM3... Laughing

Which "TM3" ?
- Fuun Kabuki Den (not exactly 3) ?
- Or Namida on PS2 (the real #3) -> That one has pretty high-level Japanese, and tons of it. I've got a couple of Japanese walkthrough books on this, and I feel intimidated. It's JLPT 1-kyuu stuff.

-Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The PSP version of TM2 was emulated... Not sure how/why they would make such a change. Are you sure about this?"

Yeah, I own the PSP collection. I used to have the DS version of TM2, but I lost it somewhere soon after I had bought it. They both were missing the manji symbol in the intro.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjt9AHG0iL8

Actually, the the DS version is edited differently. The DS version replaces manji with the fire clan symbol, and the PSP version just removes it completely.

The DS version had a lot more changes done to it, like showing the character portraits in the battle and allowing you to "slice" the enemies with the stylus (or tap them) to do basic attacks.

I'm guessing they forced the emulator to skip loading manji in the intro for the PSP version, but they totally redid everything for the DS version, so they created a replacement image.

In either case, it doesn't bode well for the Kinu scene, which was heavily censored to the point where it doesn't make sense in the PS2/GC release. If they censored it on those consoles, then the handhelds might not be different.

I don't think of Kabukiden as Tengai Makyou 3, since he knocks that title away, heh heh. I was talking about Namida on the PS2. Actually, I have all of the TM games except for Shinden, Karakuri, and that iphone game, whatever it's called.

The toughest thing about Namida is that it's so open-ended. You might only have a general goal to accomplish, but the world is huge, so you can't easily trigger the next event. I wasn't using a guidebook, but maybe I should consider it.

I haven't been playing PS2 much lately, though.
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